Curse

sama · May 27, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

This week has been quite interesting in terms of new applicants for my guild. We've recieved no less than 4 inquiries from other guilds that have disbanded to merge with us. It would seem that this is a trend of many pvp oriented guild along all tiers of competitiveness. It's hard to tell the exact percentage or quanity of pvp players that have stopped playing this game, but a lagging indicator has been the breakup of these pvp guilds.

I feel that a major factor why all these pvp guilds are disbanding is the amount of time they need to invest to have fun later. Naturally, some players are able to invest more time than others and what ends up happening is that you have some players with their "basic" skills unlocked and players that don't. Since gvg is an eight man game, it's actually quite hard to get eight players in one guild "ready to have fun." Also, we've changed our builds no less than 2-3 times a week to adjust for the constant changes in popular tombs builds.

K A R M A has lost a few players due to the time needed to prepare an account for pvp. But we still have a strong nucleus and many dedicated players. If you'll allow me to share some advice, we've based our membership on chemistry. The chemistry we have is a by-product of sharing similiar goals and ideals. So it's important to not just set them, but have people accept them and follow them. I dunno, it works for us. No one in my guild knows each other in real life, but we all get along incredibly well and have a lot of fun making fun of various things in this game.

It's quite sad to see what was once a vibrant community of pvp guilds start to dwindle before the "fun" begins...

Kordesh · May 27, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

*FACESLAP!*

Thats for mentioning the phrase "pvp grind" again.

Zeru · May 27, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

He's still right :/

Divinitys Creature · May 27, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I felt a strong pull back to more real life activities rather than grind and I can see it in some other guilds too. I decided to focus on grinding for a while to get it out of the way but I can't resisit from some tombs competition. But the repulsive force of the grind (the dark side of the force) is hard to defeat.

Yeah I watched Star Wars, more than once :P

Darc.Syde · May 27, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

wow, i had not noticed soem guilds were doing this. but i do agree however, taht the time spent before being able to pvp or gvg is quite some time. Us SoW guys took atleast a month to begin GvGing becuase not all of us had time to play as often as other, not counting the fact you need to soc and farm runes.

Ellestar · May 27, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by sama

This week has been quite interesting in terms of new applicants for my guild. We've recieved no less than 4 inquiries from other guilds that have disbanded to merge with us. It would seem that this is a trend of many pvp oriented guild along all tiers of competitiveness. It's hard to tell the exact percentage or quanity of pvp players that have stopped playing this game, but a lagging indicator has been the breakup of these pvp guilds.

...

It's quite sad to see what was once a vibrant community of pvp guilds start to dwindle before the "fun" begins...

Almost noone of the established PvP guilds moved from other MMORPGs to Guild Wars. Generally they're far more stable than guilds that were formed recently. Guilds disband in every PvP game, nothing special here. Also, it's a good source of players for a guilds that still there because generally it's more dedicated and experienced players who stay in the game.

xaanix · May 27, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I have to say that this is basically happening to my guild as well. More than most members of my guild, i watch the actions of other guilds and form relationships with them. My own guild is down to 3 active members from an official roster of around 25, and a bwe playing roster of about 18. So my own experiences support the claims of the original poster. Furthermore, from what i've witnessed in guilds around me, it is happening to many if not most of them as well.

Aiwahead · May 27, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Not only what Ellestar has said, but in fact, the disbanding of some guilds WILL actually balance out the ladder and make it more competitive as the remanents of the original guilds disperse across the perhaps newer, more numerous guilds.

Xellos · May 27, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Just gonna try to lighten the sad mood here

but maybe sama is trying to convince us more guilds = good to cover up his dropping sigil rates :P

Seriously though, I'm not sure what to make of this. I guess the game doesn't have much attraction. The fact that people go "TS/VENT MUST" and such, and how the game is generally punishing to those who have limited options hurt the game.

The game does require skill, but not to a large extent. It comes in very small doses over large amounts of things that aren't obtainable by spending an hour a day. No matter how good you are, even Valandor can't take out a top 20 guild in GvG with only templates.

You got to understand, the current PVP system is focused purely on "hardcore" players. All the focus has been on tombs, and not on arena. Arena got completely screwed. Sure, you can pick your team now, but no one cares because the stipulations aren't very different. You have 3 stips, kill, priest kill, and kill before time ends. You multiply that by two because of random and arranged. Before, it was setup so every arena had different stipulations, but had no random rotation.

I'd like to see different arenas have their own stipulations, but have rotating maps. That would be awesome. Couple that with some arena points or something, just an indicator to reward casual players, and you just might bring back the casual crowd.

Another thing is that most of the time, people are driven away the minute they see trends going and not being stopped. These people are usually very easily affected by changes, and are "sensitive" to game changes, but hey, their still a portion of your gaming community. Like I said, even arena should have some incentive as small as it is, that makes good players want to play arena in their spare time instead of sitting at lions arch. That way, variety can prove itself over cookie cutters.

grimmolly · May 27, 2005, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Guild wars goes on and the world still turns. Our guild has been forced to merge because some of our beta members had finals in school and we're not active enough to put out our best team for GvG. This happens in all online games, but timing is certainly a factor here. Luckily, we had been practically merged for a long time before the question came up, so it was only natural.

Repeat after me... more guilds are good... more guilds are good... must buy sigils from grim.

sama · May 27, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

while it is very natural for guilds to disband and recreate themselves, there is a noticable drop in the total number of pvp'ers from beta, to launch, to now. I belong to a very active vent community with many top guilds. There use to be a lot more people on this vent but a few of the guilds on this server are more or less inactive.

As I said before, for some members of my guild, they can't stand the grind and so they pretty much stop playing all together. When I asked why the other guilds wanted to merge with ours, they explained that there's issues with inactivity and they can't get a full tombs or gvg group going.

While it's hard to provide conclusive data to support my claims, what is hard to refute is the difference in level of competition and total number of pvp players from beta compared to now. And I believe this decrease in competitiveness and quanity of pvp players to be a problem resulting from the systemic grind in guild wars. How many dots does it take to form a pattern for you guys? (note: not asking in frustration, but for future reference)

Xaanix: Does ClG not use the fianna server anymore?

and i don't even sell my sigils anymore, it's too much work to get them off my pvp char to my pve char :P

Shagsbeard · May 27, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Guildwars is what... 4 weeks old? It's going to be a great game in 6 months when all the whiners quit. This would be a great game if there were ~1000 people playing it rather than ~100,000. I see good things for the future of the game. You do realize that you don't need to grind at all to be competative in PvP? Finding skills that work well together (with teammates) is far more important than finding rare skills. You certainly don't need them all. If PvPers are quitting because they don't like the game, then so be it. I don't see people going to chess oriented message boards and complaining that opening moves are too important to succeed in the endgame. People that don't like chess simply don't play it. Same should be true of games like this, but for some silly reason it isn't.

Perishiko ReLLiK · May 27, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Hint Hint:: Use the pre-made characters for just your needed elite skill... you can get your basic skills you want pretty easily, and quickly... but another thing about this... if you have a good guild, with active members (Not mine-only about three-four of us on) you can have a guild member rush you to the needed place for your spell you want...

The game just came out, and the small "Grind"(That term shouldnt be used here) is just to make you get used to the skills, and working as a team... lots of the missions if you havent noticed yet, make people work as a team quite well...

If you want to talk about a grind, go to a real mmorpg, and see how many Years it takes you to become top lvl, just to enjoy the dueling/guild wars... yea... have fun wasting about 2-3 Years! of your life... (Casual gamers can relate)-- This of course, counting only at the few i played...

Xellos · May 27, 2005, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Guildwars is what... 4 weeks old? It's going to be a great game in 6 months when all the whiners quit.

The problem is rather, guild wars spoiled the players already, so the standard is now too high. It's irreversible as far as I can see.

Quote:

This would be a great game if there were ~1000 people playing it rather than ~100,000.

Wow, just wow. Starcraft'D.

Quote:

I see good things for the future of the game.

I'm a pessimist in this thread. I foresee WoW owning this game.

Quote:

You do realize that you don't need to grind at all to be competative in PvP?

I don't? So, so I can win HoH with templates?

Quote:

Finding skills that work well together (with teammates) is far more important than finding rare skills.

So your teamates are going to be static? Nice to know that you ain't changing from rock to scissors anytime soon, now I just have to throw paper every time.

Quote:

You certainly don't need them all.

Totally, there's a bunch of pretty useless skills at the moment. Mainly from necromancer.

Quote:

If PvPers are quitting because they don't like the game, then so be it.

Totally, because 1000 players is going to convince Anet to keep their servers up.

Quote:

I don't see people going to chess oriented message boards and complaining that opening moves are too important to succeed in the endgame.

Actually, I can see that as a possibility. I don't really consider chess to be a skill-game, rather a game of memory and foresight. The variables are too consistant to make it fun and interesting to the majority of people that play guild wars. Hence why people don't play pong anymore even though it's completely balanced in PVP?

Quote:

Same should be true of games like this, but for some silly reason it isn't.

Your right, some people always try to get what they want. But you need to realize, that if your a hockey player, and you walk into a hockey shop, you expect them to sell you hockey stuff, not DDR pads.

Rey Lentless · May 27, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I can't see how grind and a game a month old is even in the same sentence.

The problem is a lot of people who don't have a ton of time.. haven't gathered everything they need to have the best possible chance in pvp yet.. in a month.. in a mmorpg? Well, duh.

If that's too much for them, they weren't going to last anyway. They certainly weren't going to stay for an expansion, and start gathering those skills, new runes, or whatever either.

The fact that there are a lot of people have gotten everything they want, already a month into the game, should eliminate the word grind here.

Del12 · May 27, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

Guildwars is what... 4 weeks old? It's going to be a great game in 6 months when all the whiners quit. This would be a great game if there were ~1000 people playing it rather than ~100,000. I see good things for the future of the game. You do realize that you don't need to grind at all to be competative in PvP? Finding skills that work well together (with teammates) is far more important than finding rare skills. You certainly don't need them all. If PvPers are quitting because they don't like the game, then so be it. I don't see people going to chess oriented message boards and complaining that opening moves are too important to succeed in the endgame. People that don't like chess simply don't play it. Same should be true of games like this, but for some silly reason it isn't.

Well said. There's plenty of people that are taking their time going through 'the grind' like myself before they even play the main PvP part of the game. And he's right that it's not about having all the best skills, it's about having skills that work together as a team. But I think a few months down the line plenty of new people will come into the PvP part of the game. Unless its just not fun for long term, but I've enjoyed the early arena PvP stuff so far (except for the occasional team of newblars). And I think just the number of possiblities with characters/skills/strategies will keep me interested for a while.

sama · May 27, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

heh ok. i wanted to talk about a different, more humanistic aspect of the "grind" in guild wars, but old arguments just gets rehashed. Well, I suppose when you have the knowledgable and experieced vs the misguided and fanatical what usually ends up happening is a stalemate. One side is unable to enlighten the other, the other side is unable to see the light. Quite hilarious actually =)

Well, it looks like the established guilds don't have to worry about new competition anytime soon...or ever.

Adaria · May 27, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

I don't worry about my time spent doing missions or getting items and the such, I just ENJOY THE GAME!

The competitive types that seem to be dropping out due to this 'grind' don't seem to enjoy the game for what it is and just prefer to have everything and beat the crap out of opposing teams for hours on end over and over and over with little change of setting.

Personally I can't understand how some PvP people can sit and do this for hours on end in repetition with little change of scenery, mission goals or the like.

Also, this entire 'grind' issue has been beaten over and over and over and why must it continue to be beaten like this over and over and over again?

We all have our own opinions on this supposed grind, but why, oh WHY must it constantly be brought out for debate, mainly from what I have noticed, by the PvP people who are dropping the game merely because they feel it is a grind and not enjoyment or accomplishment to go out and have some simple fun with friends killing mobs of enemies.

*deepbreath, walk away*

Khrysyl · May 27, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Before it gets any hotter in here, can both sides please just call a truce and cease hostilities toward one another?

I cannot imagine that everyone is not completely aware of everyone's position on this issue, but if anyone is not all they have to do is read any of (at least) 100 other threads on this forum and others.

Now, can we all just play nice? Please?

edit: corrected spelling mistake

Zeru · May 27, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

I don't understand why people are so eager to make the game worse for others, especially when it doesn't affect them. I doubt there is anyone who actually likes to do repetitive tasks over and over again for 150+ hours so they can play the part of the game they deem fun.

What's worse is that the 'evil elitist pvpers' are way better off than the more casual pvpers. The former can make lots of gold/unid'ed rares quickly due to sigil demand. They also have excellent guild support on obtaining elite skills and such and are often the first to make use of the best farming locations before they are found and shut down. The average guy who wants to pvp in something other than arena? Pfft, he has no chance without an absurd amount of repetitive work put in